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Loren and Simon discuss Simon’s SEO journey from the publisher side at AOL (TechCrunch & HuffPo) to his current “marketplace SEO” focus at Trader Interactive and previously with ForRent.com, and then a bit on working with smaller teams to efficiently get the SEO job done. Simon Heseltine is the VP of the award winning Audience Growth at Trader Interactive (Best In-House Team of 2020 at the Global Search Awards
Here is the entire transcript of the show (please excuse any transcription errors) :
Loren Baker: Hi, everybody. This is Loren Baker, Founder of Search Engine Journal. And with me today, we have a special show, brought to you by the US Search Awards and We Are Searched, and kicking off our series of US Search Awards-themed shows, here at SEJ, is none other than, Simon Heseltine. Simon, thank you for joining.
Simon Heseltine: Thank you, Loren. How you doing?
Loren Baker: Good. Good. It’s always a pleasure. Had a little bit of catching up that we’ve done beforehand. But would you mind, giving us just a quick introduction about yourself and your history within the world of SEO?
Simon Heseltine: Sure, sure. So I’m the current VP of Consumer Audience Growth Marketing at Trader Interactive, down in Norfolk, Virginia. We run RV Trader, Cycle Trader, Snowmobile Trader, ATV Trader, lots of things with trader on them, but not the one with cars. That’s a different company. So before that, I was at, For Rent, working on apartments, basically, same kind of business, marketplace sites, driving leads to dealers. Before that I was at Hewlett Packard Enterprise, running their global search. And before that, I spent six and a half years at AOL, running the audience development team there. Before that with some agency and then some other work, before that on Yellow Pages, back when we had Yellow Pages.
Loren Baker: Oh, wow. I didn’t realize you worked at the Yellow Pages.
Simon Heseltine: Oh, yeah. That’s where I got the move into search.
Loren Baker: Delivering them?
Simon Heseltine: No, no, no. Initially, I was a developer.
Loren Baker: Okay.
Simon Heseltine: We were putting the Yellow Pages on CD, so that we could do print reduction for the big telcos, rather than delivering a big pallet of phone books for a company. They delivered the one CD, put it on the internet, everything done. And then of course, the next step was, take it and put it online.
Loren Baker: Yep.
Simon Heseltine: When you take it and put it online, that’s when you start to wonder about, how can I get more people to come and look at this online? And that’s where somebody said, “Well, we should have somebody look at this SEO thing.” I said, “Well, why not?” So that’s where I got my start on SEO.
Loren Baker: There you go, kind of in full circle, right?
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: I didn’t realize you were in the Yellow Pages originally. And then, getting in the publishing agency with Life and then publishing with AOL for years.
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: And then, back into classifieds with For Rents and with Trader.
Simon Heseltine: Yep.
Loren Baker: Kind of neat and actually a really good time to probably be in the RV trader side of things, as well, I would believe, in the past year.
Simon Heseltine: Well, yes. I mean, for the last year, we have seen increased demand, which has been great for the sites because obviously, as we’ve been going through the situation through the pandemic over the last year and three months now. We’ve had this, for one, folks aren’t wanting to travel abroad because they can’t travel abroad.
Loren Baker: Right.
Simon Heseltine: And for two, folks want to isolate, they want to be in their own social bubbles. And what better way for you to go on a trip and isolate with your family or with your social bubble, than in an RV, or to get out on a motorbike, get out on an ATV. You’re pretty well socially distancing yourself from anybody, while you’re doing those activities. So there’s been a great deal of search for those. The only challenge has been, on the inventory side, in that obviously, manufacturing shut down for a while on quite a lot of these industries, last year.
Loren Baker: Yeah.
Simon Heseltine: And now, there’s been a challenge in actually, getting the microchips in, which all these vehicles need. And that’s the same on the auto side, as well. I was talking to some mutual friends of ours about that and it’s been a struggle. Inventory is a huge struggle right now.
Loren Baker: Plus the price in raw materials, even outside of microchips, like steel, rubber, everything.
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: Right?
Simon Heseltine: Yeah, yeah.
Loren Baker: So it’s a good time to be in the previously owned vehicle business.
Simon Heseltine: Again, but folks aren’t trading them in.
Loren Baker: Right.
Simon Heseltine: They aren’t selling their used vehicles and that’s still a challenge, as well, because they know that they can’t buy that new Corvette because they’re not available until 2022.
Loren Baker: Yeah.
Simon Heseltine: So you’re not going to get rid of your old one right now. You’re going to wait.
Loren Baker: That’s a good point. I saw the video yesterday for the new electric Ford F-150 Lightning. And I actually wasn’t upset because it’s probably going to hit the market in two years.
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: And it’s actually a great time for these companies to be transitioning right now. Right?
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: So it makes a lot of sense, on that front. So before we get into a little bit about what you’re doing on the day-to-day and then all of those beautiful awards behind you. I’d just like to remind everybody that again, today’s show is sponsored by the US Search Awards, which are now open for entry. 2021 is going to be the ninth year, celebrating outstanding search across the United States. And now you can get your submissions in before the early bird access ends on June 18th.
Just go to ussearchawards.com, to enter today. There’s going to be 43 different categories this year, which is quite a lot, compared to the first year of Search Awards, nine years ago, where I was a judge at the time. And I know you’ve been very involved, based upon what I see behind your left shoulder there, I believe, or your rights shoulder. So Simon, could you go a little bit into what all those pretty things are behind you and how that’s worked?
Simon Heseltine: Sure.
Loren Baker: Not only from an award-winning perspective, but I think in the world of search, there’s a couple of things that come to mind when I think of the awards. One, a lot of SEO work is done behind the scenes, right?
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: Especially on the agency side, it’s not necessarily outwardly celebrated as much. Right? And then two, from a day-to-day perspective, an award could be great. But how does that accomplishment, typically bubble up within the company, as well?
Simon Heseltine: Well for one, SEO can be the Rodney Dangerfield of a company. We don’t get a lot of respect. Whenever you see a lot of those lists of, who are the top SEOs and things like that, you tend not to see very many in-house folks on those. Because the in-house folks, aren’t the ones out there, that are trying to get business, they’re not out there ducking and diving, trying to make sure that people think of them, as those thought leaders, so that they can get dollars coming in.
We’ve got the dollars coming in within their own companies, but the awards themselves, they definitely do help within your own company. Because they can show to your company, that probably these people actually do know what they’re talking about. For example, so the white one that you see there, was the 2014 US In-house Team of the Year Award and that was at AOL. And my team at AOL, initially when I joined, there were 10 of us doing search for 135 different sites.
Loren Baker: Wow.
Simon Heseltine: So, I mean, we were doing for all the ones that had AOL at the beginning of them, we were doing SEO for TechCrunch, for HuffPost, Frank Gadget, for so many different sites. In fact, they didn’t know how many sites they had, until they brought this one COO in and he had somebody count them all. So, we were 10 people, working on 135 sites. We eventually got down to the point, by the time we did this award in 2014, there were two of us, working on all the sites that we had. They consolidated them quite a bit by then, but winning that award and showcasing the results that we had got across the sites there, I mean, that actually got the attention of the CEO of AOL, Tim Armstrong at the time. So we got into be able to chat with him and we got some of the project pushed through after that.
The blue one is, For Rent in 2017, when we won the US In-house Team of the Year Award there, as well. And again, that helped to showcase what we’d done there. And I’m not going to say that that was part of the reason, but the company was bought out within four months of us winning that award. So I mean, it doesn’t hurt.
Loren Baker: No.
Simon Heseltine: And then, the tan colored one at the bottom there, is the 2020 Global Search Award for In-house Team of the Year and that is for Trader Interactive. And that’s for the work that we did over the course of 2019 into 2020. And as you said, 2020, was a great year for power sports, for RVs and for a lot of the vehicle types that we had. But we spent a great deal of time in 2019, doing a lot of work on the sites, to make sure that they were as effective as possible. We could show the growth in rankings in SEMrush. I’m still not used to calling it SEMrush, still want to call it SEM but I know they’ve rebranded. So, we looked at that and then when the actual upturn happened, we’d already seen January, February, we were already up 10%, 15% year over year.
Loren Baker: All right.
Simon Heseltine: And then that continued to grow as the year went on. And obviously, we saw those spikes as people realized, “Hey, COVID, let’s go get a motorbike. Let’s go get an RV.” And then the other two there, the pink ones, are from the US Search Awards last year, the Best Use of Data in SEO, the Best Use of Search in Automotive. And that’s use of searching automotive, again is the RVs and the work that we had done there. And we got a dev team to work on, I think it was 118 tickets in JIRA, over the course of six months.
Loren Baker: Right.
Simon Heseltine: It was a great deal of work for them to do. It was a really big project for us to get those things over the line. But by the fact that we were able to get this done and we were able to get these great results and then get these awards showcasing the work that we had done. Not only did that make my team look good, it made the dev team look good. And one of the things that you have to do when you get these kinds of things is, we share that. We make sure that everybody knows, these are the devs that helped on this, this is the organization that helped. If we didn’t have our sales folks going out there and selling to the dealers, I wouldn’t have the inventory first, to be able to rank for those terms. So it is an overall company thing, and we make sure to share that across everybody, but it definitely doesn’t hurt us.
Loren Baker: Yeah. I totally see where you’re coming from with it, just being a little bit more than an accomplishment and something, an accomplishment just for the team. Right?
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: And something that can be shared internally. And then also, one thing I’ve definitely noticed a lot more in the past couple of years, working more on the enterprise side, is that sometimes, it can quite difficult to get that win. Right? But when you get the win, the ability to communicate internally can open up a lot of the channels that were typically blocked and or slower to make those changes. Especially, when the wind moves the needle from the positive financial side, the revenue side of the company, whether the win is overall acknowledgment and whether it’s getting the one project in, which sets the tone or the template, to be able to replicate that in the future with different teams. And I would imagine, communicating that the project also got you national and international recognition for the company, is quite helpful on that side too.
Simon Heseltine: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I’ll go back to the AOL side. I mean, as I said, 135 brands. If we couldn’t get some of the bigger brands to do something, we’d go to a GM at one of the smaller brands or one of the international brands and say, “Hey, can we try this? Can we do this?” And we get that there and we get the results. And then we go to the big brands and say, “Hey, little brand did this. They got a 20% boost.”
Loren Baker: Imagine if you-
Simon Heseltine: How do you feel about that now?
Loren Baker: … yeah.
Simon Heseltine: And suddenly, they’d be open to it. It’s weird how that happens.
Loren Baker: It’s weird when the little brother, little sister accomplishes something and the older sibling wants to as well. By the way, I totally forgot about Engadget and Weblogs Inc, being part of the AOL family at the time.
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: It’s a publishing history lesson, thinking about that, as well.
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: So, that’s really cool. So you had the synergies between Yellow Pages and launching the CDs, in Yellow Pages. And then going down the line, finding yourself at AOL, which is very famous for its CD distribution, as well, their CD-ROM distribution, as well. Right?
Simon Heseltine: I will say, that at the AOL offices, they had one table, in one of the conference rooms that was made out of concrete, that they had taken broken bits of the CDs and put into the concrete.
Loren Baker: Oh, that’s cool.
Simon Heseltine: It was an old concrete table with just bits of CDs all over it.
Loren Baker: I knew many people who use CDs as scarecrows, to scare off the birds and things like that. So actually that would be a really good piece of content to see what people have done with those CDs over the years. And actually, Yext I believe, just put out an AOL themed campaign to promote their internal site search offering, which is on CD-ROM as well, 90 style CD-ROM, which is kind of funny. If you haven’t seen that yet, I’ll send you the link. But at AOL, you’re early work was on the publisher side. Right? Helping all 135 different publishing brands. And then over the years, you’ve transitioned in the classifieds-
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: … at For Rents Apartments and then now, at Trader Interactive. What were you able to learn working in the publishing side of the house, that you’ve been able to bring with you on the classified or marketplace side of the house, especially with content marketing and digital PR becoming so much more important with the grand scheme of things now?
Simon Heseltine: Yeah. So we do still do a lot of content. I mean, we work with building content out on the blog, which obviously, is not the same as putting it on a new site. So there are different nuances.
Loren Baker: Right.
Simon Heseltine: It’s probably been five and a half years now, since I’ve cared about Google-News Bot, which I know is now combined with Googlebot, but it’s not something that I spend a lot of time thinking of, because I don’t have sites that work in that area anymore. But the general basis of content is still the same. I mean, it’s making sure you’ve got the right content, to do what you’re trying to do for your sites. So obviously, over on that new side, the goal is, get people here for this new piece of content that we’re putting out. And we know that, that content is going to roll over.
On my side now, with the content that we put out there, it’s a little bit of a longer term thing. And then we’re looking at more evergreen style content, so that we can get people coming back. And we are still looking at content that we can push out, maybe through PR to industry sites. But obviously, now that I’m working with a limited number of sites, there are fewer than when I was at AOL and we were looking at this wide gamut of everything. But content is absolutely, it’s hugely important still, just in a different way.
Loren Baker: There’s a big difference in hitting the publishing button and it goes everywhere, like I imagined it would have at AOL, as having to wait a little bit or put together that long-term strategy. I’m just curious, given the age of RV Trader and all of the properties in the Trader Interactive, do you integrate your content campaigns into your email strategies at all-
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: … those big lists? Okay. How does that typically work out for you, on that side?
Simon Heseltine: I mean, we do a bunch of different email campaigns. One of the things of course, we have the B2C side where we’re obviously, trying to get people to come to our sites, the classic bums on seats, getting the eyeballs on our sites.
Loren Baker: Right.
Simon Heseltine: That we can get folks to actually look for the unit that they’re trying to find, so that they can click through and get the leads, which is what our dealers are looking for and then obviously, it’s up to dealers to take that over the line. Whereas on the dealer side, when we’re doing that B2B side, we’re putting out dealer specific content, that’s trying to get dealers to recognize that they really need to have their vehicles listed on our site, in order for them to be found.
So, we’ve got those two different types of strategies there and our content and our email, work hand in hand, to make sure that they’ve got the right content for both types of audiences. And obviously, we have an editorial calendar for each brand that we have put together, and that works with our email team, to make sure that they know what needs to be going out and when that needs to be going out. We do use a project management system. We use Wrike which all the teams are in and that helps them to understand what’s coming and when that’s coming.
Loren Baker: Yeah, the pre-education is really important on that side. I’m a big fan of Wrike, actually, not many companies that I’ve talked to use it, everyone seems to be using Teams now. Whoever the Team’s sales people are, kudos, because they’ve sold everyone on Microsoft Teams. But yeah, that’s really cool. And I am a big believer in the power of the email newsletter. See so many companies, either B2C and B2B, trying to use their newsletter specifically, as a transaction vehicle. Right?
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: But at the same time, when you have people opting in, to hear from your company, they just don’t want to hear about sales and BOGO offers and percentages off and things like that. And in many ways, I encourage content marketers or email marketers, to treat their emails the same way that we would treat search, with looking at various levels of intent. Right? Even if you lead with the transactional offer, you can always follow-up with the links to the blog post or the resource links and things like that. Because if someone doesn’t buy, they’re just going to stop. Right?
They’re going to scroll down to the bottom and if they don’t want to buy something, they’re just not going to click. But if you can give them some nice resourceful information that’s relevant to them, because they’ve already identified the fact that they’re either, in the market for an RV, or they’ve bought an RV in the past, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And if you have 20 ways on how to take your RV off-road or something like that, then that’s probably going to peak their interest and maybe that’s a sale down the road.
Simon Heseltine: Yeah, exactly. It’s not all about transaction, transaction, transaction, it’s engagement, as well. So you want to keep those folks around. You’re going to buy an RV now, but then you’re probably not going to buy another one next month or three months down the road. But in two or three years time, if you’ve been on the email list, we’ve been providing you with that content that helps you, how to winterize your RV, how to maintain it and all those different types of things, best places to go, different trips that you can take. We’re giving you that information, that keeps us top of mind, for when you are ready to trade it in and get another one.
Loren Baker: Yeah. That’s great information that’s not only useful from a search perspective, but also helps to really build that long-term trust.
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: And on that note, here is a sponsored break from our friends at the US Search Awards. Today’s episode of the SEJ Show is brought to you by the US Search Awards, which are now open for entry. 2021 will be their ninth year, celebrating outstanding search across the United States. So get your submissions in now because the early bird access ends on June 18th. The awards are judged by a team of international, industry leading search experts, who follow a rigorous, ethical and transparent two-step judging process.
So enter your best work in the 43 different categories, including SEO, PPC, digital marketing, and content marketing by June 25th, which is the final cutoff date. Winners will then be announced at the US Search Awards ceremony on October 7th. The US Search Awards are brought to you by Don’t Panic Events and We Are Search, both award experts who deliver search recognition around the globe. Visit ussearchawards.com. Again, that’s ussearchawards.com, for more information and get your submissions in today. Thank you.
The eye contact was pretty good, but the lighting seems a little bit off with that video. I might have to reshoot it. So for all of you that are currently listening, please go to ussearchawards.com, check out all 43 categories this year and become part of the party. Any word from the team, whether or not they’re going to do it in-person? Do you know Simon? I haven’t talked to them about it.
Simon Heseltine: I believe the plan is that, they are hoping to, but I obviously, don’t speak for them. At the moment, the US is not on the green list for the UK.
Loren Baker: Oh.
Simon Heseltine: They have a traffic light system for when you can go back to the UK, but they modify that every month. So we shall see how it goes.
Loren Baker: Gotcha. We’ll see, right. It’s a long time until October.
Simon Heseltine: It is indeed.
Loren Baker: So, excellent. Excellent. And it’s my understanding that, for working on so many sites, you have a fairly small team in the search marketing division. So could you go into that a little bit and how you scale up your team, across so many sites and so many different projects?
Simon Heseltine: Yeah. So, I mean, that always seems to be a challenge at a lot of different places. I mean, at AOL, as I said, we got down to two folks on the SEO team. We didn’t do SEM after a certain point, but here now, I mean, I basically have one full-time SEO, apart from myself. And we do occasionally, get contractors in, our consultants in, to give us a hand on specific projects. But we basically, try and portion our time out to figure out, “Okay, what’s going to the need to work. Where are we going to be going?”
Our eight core sites are all on the same CMS now. They’re all on the same code base. So for us to make a change to one of those, it makes things very easy for us. We did purchase a bunch of sites last year from a competitor, that we’re integrating into a different CMS, but we’re bringing those all into again, a common CMS for those sites, which has been fun and we’re getting there with it. But those are some sites that we’re spending time on and making sure we get those to where we need them to get to. On the SEM side, I have two folks on that team. When I joined the company, it was just the one, but we are now at two because obviously, we’ve expanded out.
As I said, we have these new sites, as well. Actually, it was two when I started, but we’re at two now, but we have expanded, we brought new sites on board. And that team is doing a great job, making sure that we’re getting the best bang for the buck. In fact, last month was our lowest ever CPL, oh, PCP, no CPL. It was our lowest ever CPL across the entire company-
Loren Baker: Outstanding.
Simon Heseltine: … for all of our brands. So, I mean, they’re doing a great job on that. Yeah.
Loren Baker: Having one uniform CMS solution across multiple brands is pretty helpful. Right?
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: As opposed to undoing the rubber band ball for each individual brand, especially older aged legacy brands, I would say.
Simon Heseltine: I mean, I’ll go back to AOL again with this. I mean, I believe at one point, we had seven different CMSs because we were always doing acqui-hires. So we were always building, buying these companies and trying to get the people to actually get the site themselves. But I mean, when we brought HuffPost in 2011, they were using a Frankensteined version of 2005 moveable type, that broke about three times a week. So that was fun for us, to CMS across that, as well as our own in-house CMS, WordPress, just a bunch of others that we were working with there. Here, everything is our in-house solution, so we’re working as there were basically, two different code sets as we get there. But yeah, it’s fun. It’s a challenge and everything’s going pretty good.
Loren Baker: Cool. We have a couple of minutes left, but I’m really curious. Do you also divide up tasks, seasonally? Because I think you said, that snowmobiles are part of what you do? Right?
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: And ATVs and things like that. So these are completely different seasons, as well.
Simon Heseltine: Yeah. I mean obviously, there’s a different seasonality. I mean, even day of the week, we get differences. I mean, the commercial side of the business, we get a lot of our traffic, Tuesday, Wednesday, our recreation business, most of the traffic comes in on a weekend. But when you’re looking at the individual sites, yeah, I mean, there are interesting seasonalities for some of them. We don’t like to see natural disasters in the country at any time. We don’t like to see hurricanes or anything like that.
Obviously, they have a huge negative impact, but they also have a negative impact on our recreation sites. They have a positive impact on our commercial sites because people then go out, they need to buy the equipment, to be able to clean up, buy the trucks to be able to take things away. So, there are things like that and trade offs, short-term, cyclical things like that, as well, that we have to deal with. But yeah, I mean, Snowmobile Trader gets a nice chunk of traffic during the winter, not as much in July and August.
Loren Baker: I can imagine, unless you’re up in Minnesota or something like that.
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: Well, I guess there’s no snow in July and August there either. Great. Well, it’s really been a pleasure Simon. I dropped a link to your Twitter profile. I hope you don’t mind-
Simon Heseltine: Oh, no.
Loren Baker: … for people to be able to follow you there. Is there any other places online folks can follow you, find out more about you, find out more about Trader Interactive, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Simon Heseltine: Well, I mean, there’s obviously traderinteractive.com, although, we are in the process of redesigning that at the moment. And we actually do have four open marketing positions at the moment, over there. So if anybody’s looking, we are now a remote first company. Which means, we’re looking for anybody in the Continental Europe and in the US.
Loren Baker: Nice, nice.
Simon Heseltine: We’ll do Alaska and Hawaii, as well.
Loren Baker: Oh, cool. Not just the lower 48. So your remote first, you’re based in Norfolk, Virginia.
Simon Heseltine: Yep.
Loren Baker: One of my favorite places to visit, by the way, Norfolk, Virginia Beach, Eastern Shore area. So it’s kind of nice that you’re in that area but I also understand some of the constraints around that area too, from a talent pool perspective. Right? So has that been a benefit of going completely remote or remote first, as well? The ability to recruit all over the US?
Simon Heseltine: Yeah. I mean, from the pandemic itself, obviously we went to everybody working from home, pretty quickly. I mean, I think it was the Wednesday, was it March 13th, it was announced, or March 11th, it was announced? And we went on March 13th, we went to remote at that point. Obviously, not thinking it was going to last as long as it has done, but basically by doing that, we were able to prove, that folks were productive, working from home.
Loren Baker: Yeah.
Simon Heseltine: That we didn’t need to be in the office. So we have come to the point, where we are now a remote first company. So I have since, in the last few months, I’ve hired folks out in Tennessee, out in Illinois and we’re open to wherever.
Loren Baker: Amazing. I’d love to catch up more on that in the future, maybe as a part two.
Simon Heseltine: Maybe.
Loren Baker: But Simon Heseltine, it’s been a pleasure having you today. It’s good catching up. We haven’t talked, at least seen each other, talking or talking without texts, for quite a bit.
Simon Heseltine: Yeah.
Loren Baker: So I’m going to look you up in a few weeks when I’m in town.
Simon Heseltine: All right.
Loren Baker: And I’m really looking forward to that. And just as a reminder to all viewers and listeners, today’s episode with Mr. Heseltine was brought to you by US Search Awards. US Search Awards is now open for entry. It’s going to be the ninth year of the US Search Awards. It just seems like it started yesterday, it’s amazing to hear that these are almost a decade old. This year, I think we have the most different categories at 43, different categories ranging from SEO, PPC, digital marketing, and content marketing.
So the early bird cutoff date is June 18th, which is also right around the corner. And then if you missed June 18th, by any measure, June 25th is the official cutoff date, which is also right around the corner, as well, just a little bit over a month away. So visit the ussearchawards.com. Again, that’s ussearchawards.com, brought to us by Don’t Panic Events and We Are Search. Simon, it’s been fantastic. Thank you so much. I could talk to you more and more about the remote thing, but we’ll follow-up on that front. I know these go very quickly and I’ll see you soon.
Simon Heseltine: Yeah. Thanks for the invite, Loren. Okay. Bye-bye.
Loren Baker: Bye.
